1 00:00:07,674 --> 00:00:08,675 A number of ... 2 00:00:08,717 --> 00:00:09,968 What, three or four psychiatrists 3 00:00:10,010 --> 00:00:11,177 and psychologists interviewed you? 4 00:00:11,219 --> 00:00:12,679 I had thirteen of them. 5 00:00:12,721 --> 00:00:15,515 There was six for the defense and seven for the state. 6 00:00:15,557 --> 00:00:16,933 Yeah. What was the ... The state’s doctor ... 7 00:00:16,975 --> 00:00:19,060 ... position of the defense psychiatrists? 8 00:00:19,102 --> 00:00:21,146 What did they feel your problem was? 9 00:00:22,605 --> 00:00:25,316 What did they come up with from the standpoint of ... 10 00:00:25,358 --> 00:00:27,360 Border ... What the hell is it? 11 00:00:27,402 --> 00:00:29,279 God, I can’t remember offhand. 12 00:00:29,779 --> 00:00:33,742 Borderline personality, anti-social behavior. 13 00:00:33,783 --> 00:00:36,036 I don’t see how anybody can be anti-social 14 00:00:36,077 --> 00:00:38,747 when you were involved with the public as much as I was. 15 00:00:38,788 --> 00:00:41,541 How about the multiple-personality issue? 16 00:00:41,958 --> 00:00:43,626 Oh, the multiple personality 17 00:00:45,462 --> 00:00:47,881 came out of Dr. Reifman and Hartman. 18 00:00:48,882 --> 00:00:53,386 These two clowns from the the Cook County there, 19 00:00:53,887 --> 00:00:55,638 they came to see me the first time. 20 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,350 I says, "You want to talk to John Wayne Gacy the politician, 21 00:00:58,391 --> 00:01:01,519 the clown, the family man, or the businessman?" 22 00:01:02,437 --> 00:01:04,022 The next day I see it in the newspaper: 23 00:01:04,064 --> 00:01:06,191 "Gacy has four personalities." 24 00:01:52,404 --> 00:01:54,322 Now it was a one-sided fight. 25 00:01:54,739 --> 00:01:56,991 Man and machine against the wooden shell 26 00:01:57,033 --> 00:01:58,493 of a 20-year-old bungalow. 27 00:01:59,119 --> 00:02:01,830 As the roof and walls shattered, reporters and neighbors 28 00:02:01,871 --> 00:02:05,166 became witness to what Sheriff’s Investigators had been probing 29 00:02:05,208 --> 00:02:07,043 since a few days before Christmas. 30 00:02:07,585 --> 00:02:10,630 The stark frame covering to a mass grave. 31 00:02:11,423 --> 00:02:13,091 If you look closely, 32 00:02:13,133 --> 00:02:15,635 you’ll see fluorescent orange markings on the cement walls 33 00:02:15,677 --> 00:02:18,430 that surround the crawl space, now open to the rain. 34 00:02:19,222 --> 00:02:22,726 Each marking indicates the spot where a body was disinterred. 35 00:02:24,060 --> 00:02:26,312 Bulldozers have finished clearing what was once 36 00:02:26,354 --> 00:02:28,690 the crawl space of the home. But ironically, 37 00:02:28,732 --> 00:02:32,027 one boy whose body was not found on the Gacy property 38 00:02:32,068 --> 00:02:34,988 led to the investigation: young Robert Piest. 39 00:02:38,575 --> 00:02:40,368 We didn’t even have the body yet. 40 00:02:40,410 --> 00:02:42,454 Robert Piest's body was still missing. 41 00:02:42,954 --> 00:02:46,458 Even though we thought it was in the river, it was frozen over. 42 00:02:47,834 --> 00:02:49,669 The undercurrent was so tough. 43 00:02:49,711 --> 00:02:51,421 There was ice all over the place. 44 00:02:52,255 --> 00:02:56,217 There was nothing to tell us where to look in the river, 45 00:02:56,801 --> 00:02:59,095 whether it was near the bridge still 46 00:02:59,554 --> 00:03:03,641 or whether it was all the way to the Mississippi. 47 00:03:04,267 --> 00:03:05,435 There was nothing we could do 48 00:03:05,477 --> 00:03:10,065 but wait until somebody found a body. 49 00:03:10,815 --> 00:03:15,862 There were in total 29 bodies which came out of that house, 50 00:03:17,447 --> 00:03:19,783 and three more were pulled from the river, 51 00:03:19,824 --> 00:03:21,785 but 4 months after his disappearance, 52 00:03:21,826 --> 00:03:24,621 Rob Piest was still unaccounted for. 53 00:03:25,789 --> 00:03:29,918 Then another body was found downriver from the I-55 bridge. 54 00:03:30,835 --> 00:03:32,921 The body of the 33rd suspected victim 55 00:03:32,962 --> 00:03:35,340 of John Wayne Gacy was taken to the Cook County 56 00:03:35,382 --> 00:03:37,050 morgue. 57 00:03:38,385 --> 00:03:44,516 From what I heard, it was challenging to identify the body 58 00:03:44,557 --> 00:03:46,434 because of the lapse of time 59 00:03:46,476 --> 00:03:49,062 and the condition of him being in the water. 60 00:03:50,939 --> 00:03:53,441 A team of dental experts from Cook and Will County 61 00:03:53,483 --> 00:03:55,360 have identified the male white body 62 00:03:55,402 --> 00:03:56,778 recovered from the Illinois River 63 00:03:56,820 --> 00:03:59,614 this afternoon as that of missing Des Plaines 64 00:03:59,656 --> 00:04:02,033 youth 15-year-old Robert Piest. 65 00:04:05,328 --> 00:04:08,873 We had the last link, the 33rd body, 66 00:04:09,582 --> 00:04:11,960 but it was also terrible sorrow because I had become 67 00:04:12,002 --> 00:04:16,381 so close with the family that it was just heart-wrenching 68 00:04:17,090 --> 00:04:20,468 even to tell them that the body had been found. 69 00:04:37,694 --> 00:04:41,364 Rob Piest’s family was a very wonderful family, 70 00:04:41,823 --> 00:04:44,826 and I think everybody who worked on the stories heart 71 00:04:44,868 --> 00:04:47,537 goes out to them because of what they went through, 72 00:04:47,954 --> 00:04:49,914 but I think it was his brother who said, 73 00:04:49,956 --> 00:04:54,669 "Rob wanted to do something big, and if his disappearance 74 00:04:54,711 --> 00:04:57,047 and the investigation of his disappearance 75 00:04:57,088 --> 00:05:01,301 led to stopping this mad man from killing anyone else, 76 00:05:01,343 --> 00:05:04,095 Rob would have accomplished what he wanted to." 77 00:05:04,971 --> 00:05:09,184 We really feel that what happened was worthwhile 78 00:05:09,225 --> 00:05:12,645 from the point that it hopefully put an end to something, 79 00:05:13,104 --> 00:05:15,523 and now we’re gonna 80 00:05:15,565 --> 00:05:17,359 try to continue what he couldn’t finish, 81 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,695 and hopefully, nothing will happen like this again. 82 00:05:23,865 --> 00:05:26,117 I think I took it back to the courthouse 83 00:05:26,785 --> 00:05:30,288 and was just more determined 84 00:05:30,330 --> 00:05:35,043 that this guy was not about to get off scot-free. 85 00:05:35,543 --> 00:05:41,591 This family was on my list for whom I had to work for. 86 00:05:50,433 --> 00:05:51,685 In his confession, 87 00:05:51,726 --> 00:05:53,103 Gacy admitted killing the young men 88 00:05:53,144 --> 00:05:55,647 after having sex with them, then burying 89 00:05:55,689 --> 00:05:57,482 most of the bodies under his house. 90 00:05:58,191 --> 00:06:01,986 Gacy told authorities where these bodies were buried. 91 00:06:02,028 --> 00:06:06,449 Gacy told authorities exactly who, why, where he found them, 92 00:06:06,950 --> 00:06:09,411 a wealth of information, in fact most of the information, 93 00:06:09,452 --> 00:06:12,080 since the victims couldn’t speak for themselves 94 00:06:12,122 --> 00:06:13,915 and their families really didn’t know 95 00:06:13,957 --> 00:06:17,419 for the most part anything about John Wayne Gacy. 96 00:06:17,460 --> 00:06:19,629 We had to find out from Gacy himself. 97 00:06:19,671 --> 00:06:21,506 And it was Gacy’s conversations, 98 00:06:22,132 --> 00:06:24,968 confessions to law-enforcement authorities 99 00:06:25,010 --> 00:06:28,054 that enabled us to find out exactly what happened. 100 00:06:28,930 --> 00:06:31,057 Though it was also very difficult to know 101 00:06:31,099 --> 00:06:33,643 when to believe anything John Gacy said. 102 00:06:35,270 --> 00:06:36,521 I think one of headlines said 103 00:06:36,563 --> 00:06:38,356 that I was a homosexual mass murderer, 104 00:06:38,398 --> 00:06:39,816 confessed mass murderer. 105 00:06:39,858 --> 00:06:42,652 There is no confession, and we offered ... 106 00:06:43,945 --> 00:06:46,865 I offered as much as $10,000 if you can produce a confession 107 00:06:46,906 --> 00:06:48,658 where I confessed to a crime. 108 00:06:48,700 --> 00:06:51,494 The time that I was interrogated by the police officers, 109 00:06:51,536 --> 00:06:53,079 there was no stenographer. 110 00:06:53,121 --> 00:06:55,498 There was no tape recording. There was no videotaping. 111 00:06:56,332 --> 00:06:59,419 Nothing was ever taken down. Yet everywhere you will see, 112 00:06:59,461 --> 00:07:02,630 "There’s five confessions by John Wayne Gacy." 113 00:07:03,340 --> 00:07:05,675 If I confessed to something, then why wasn’t it videotaped? 114 00:07:05,717 --> 00:07:07,052 Why wasn’t it recorded? 115 00:07:07,093 --> 00:07:09,471 Why wasn’t a stenographer brought in, 116 00:07:09,512 --> 00:07:11,056 had it written up and had me sign it? 117 00:07:11,097 --> 00:07:13,224 There is no confessions in this case. 118 00:07:13,266 --> 00:07:15,810 First of all, it doesn’t have to be recorded. 119 00:07:15,852 --> 00:07:18,438 It’s nice if they allow it. He wouldn’t allow it. 120 00:07:19,189 --> 00:07:21,941 It’s even nicer if they allow it to be printed and then sign it, 121 00:07:21,983 --> 00:07:23,818 and he wouldn’t do that either. 122 00:07:23,860 --> 00:07:25,945 So what you have is a pure oral statement 123 00:07:25,987 --> 00:07:27,822 witnessed by a number of police officers, 124 00:07:27,864 --> 00:07:31,659 having written numerous and lengthy police reports 125 00:07:31,701 --> 00:07:35,121 with word-for-word documentation of what he said. 126 00:07:36,748 --> 00:07:38,875 Gacy confessed at least three times, 127 00:07:38,917 --> 00:07:41,628 but so every time, it was something different. 128 00:07:41,670 --> 00:07:44,714 He just kept trying to muddy the water. 129 00:07:45,340 --> 00:07:49,177 Gacy’s confessions were a result of various meetings. 130 00:07:49,219 --> 00:07:53,807 And Gacy’s story about what happened would change. 131 00:07:54,474 --> 00:07:55,892 He was like a chameleon. 132 00:07:55,934 --> 00:07:57,894 He would say one thing, and then the color would change. 133 00:07:57,936 --> 00:08:00,397 He would say something else at another meeting. 134 00:08:00,897 --> 00:08:03,650 You have to know my brother as my brother 135 00:08:03,692 --> 00:08:05,860 and not the criminal to understand 136 00:08:05,902 --> 00:08:09,572 that he was like two different people. 137 00:08:10,990 --> 00:08:14,077 What sane person goes out and does something like this 138 00:08:14,119 --> 00:08:17,914 and then talks about it and confesses to it, 139 00:08:17,956 --> 00:08:19,916 then says he didn’t confess to it? 140 00:08:21,918 --> 00:08:26,923 There are no clear answers to anything about this case. 141 00:08:27,507 --> 00:08:29,718 It’s totally mind-boggling. 142 00:08:30,176 --> 00:08:32,387 It’d be kind of like a Rubik’s Cube, 143 00:08:32,429 --> 00:08:34,347 and you’re trying to get all the numbers together, 144 00:08:34,389 --> 00:08:38,435 and one just doesn’t want to go. And that’s how this is. 145 00:08:39,310 --> 00:08:41,771 Some of it just doesn’t make any sense at all. 146 00:08:42,564 --> 00:08:45,108 I don’t think it was something he was born with. 147 00:08:45,483 --> 00:08:50,363 I think something happened to him to have done this. 148 00:08:50,947 --> 00:08:54,284 But I just can’t figure out how he could be 149 00:08:54,325 --> 00:08:58,955 so smart and intelligent and then so evil. 150 00:09:11,009 --> 00:09:14,846 The judge did rule today that Gacy confessed voluntarily 151 00:09:14,888 --> 00:09:17,640 and that Des Plaines police had sufficient reason 152 00:09:17,682 --> 00:09:19,392 to arrest him when they picked him up. 153 00:09:19,434 --> 00:09:22,520 Both sides agree that there could be mountains of paperwork 154 00:09:22,562 --> 00:09:24,397 before the trial begins. 155 00:09:24,439 --> 00:09:25,982 Well, it was a huge case 156 00:09:26,024 --> 00:09:28,276 for the Cook County State’s Attorney’s Office. 157 00:09:28,318 --> 00:09:29,778 We had the largest mass murderer 158 00:09:29,819 --> 00:09:31,321 in the history of the United States, 159 00:09:31,363 --> 00:09:34,074 and there was no doubt that the orders to be 160 00:09:34,115 --> 00:09:37,285 were going to be that the death penalty should be sought. 161 00:09:38,578 --> 00:09:41,206 Sam Amirante, Gacy’s attorney, 162 00:09:41,247 --> 00:09:44,793 who took Gacy on right after entering private practice, 163 00:09:45,335 --> 00:09:46,961 he was a political animal. 164 00:09:47,712 --> 00:09:52,467 And the publicity wasn’t going to hurt his beginning practice. 165 00:09:52,509 --> 00:09:53,718 It’s a tragic day 166 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:55,970 in the American criminal justice system, 167 00:09:56,012 --> 00:09:59,057 in the American system of justice, period, 168 00:09:59,099 --> 00:10:02,644 when a man cannot be brought into court to face his charges 169 00:10:02,686 --> 00:10:04,729 because of publicity or security reasons 170 00:10:04,771 --> 00:10:06,481 or any reason whatsoever. 171 00:10:06,523 --> 00:10:07,941 He was going to find any, 172 00:10:07,982 --> 00:10:13,405 anything that could try and interfere with the case 173 00:10:13,446 --> 00:10:16,241 or anything that was beneficial to his client. 174 00:10:24,374 --> 00:10:27,377 Some people would say, "You got 33 bodies. 175 00:10:27,419 --> 00:10:29,671 There’s no way you can lose it, is there?" 176 00:10:30,130 --> 00:10:35,969 And there were others that made me think, not twice, 177 00:10:36,011 --> 00:10:39,806 but 100,000 times about how we could lose it. 178 00:10:40,765 --> 00:10:47,355 The state’s attorney asked me to handle the case. 179 00:10:48,690 --> 00:10:50,191 Very early on, 180 00:10:50,233 --> 00:10:52,694 we have to start thinking about an insanity defense. 181 00:10:53,361 --> 00:10:56,072 The evening that Gacy was under arrest 182 00:10:56,114 --> 00:10:59,075 and made his oral statements, his lawyers show up. 183 00:11:00,785 --> 00:11:03,830 Now, he had already made one statement 184 00:11:03,872 --> 00:11:05,665 without the lawyers being present. 185 00:11:06,207 --> 00:11:08,877 They, of course, haul him off and talk to him. 186 00:11:09,252 --> 00:11:10,587 So now he makes 187 00:11:10,628 --> 00:11:14,424 a series of statements with his attorneys present. 188 00:11:16,134 --> 00:11:18,178 We got into the Piest discussion. 189 00:11:18,219 --> 00:11:22,057 At this time, then he told us that he took the body, 190 00:11:22,599 --> 00:11:26,895 slept with the body overnight, and we asked if ... 191 00:11:27,979 --> 00:11:29,689 "Did you have sex with" ... 192 00:11:30,106 --> 00:11:32,359 He says, "I didn’t, but Jack might have." 193 00:11:33,526 --> 00:11:35,945 While Gacy was drawing his diagram, 194 00:11:36,404 --> 00:11:37,697 I kept asking questions, 195 00:11:37,739 --> 00:11:40,450 and I was writing down everything he was saying. 196 00:11:40,492 --> 00:11:44,037 And when he was finished, he kind of looked at it 197 00:11:44,079 --> 00:11:46,790 and said, "Jack drew this." 198 00:11:49,084 --> 00:11:52,087 And I said, "Who’s Jack?" He said, "Jack Hanley." 199 00:11:52,629 --> 00:11:57,258 He starts talking about the killer being Jack Hanley. 200 00:11:58,259 --> 00:12:01,596 And he would talk about Jack Hanley killing these kids. 201 00:12:02,138 --> 00:12:05,475 He’s trying to inject a multiple-personality disorder 202 00:12:06,685 --> 00:12:09,604 into his insanity defense. 203 00:12:10,605 --> 00:12:13,191 Manipulating, conning, what he always does. 204 00:12:14,442 --> 00:12:16,695 During one of the search warrants that I wrote, 205 00:12:16,736 --> 00:12:19,072 a book was found in Gacy’s attic. 206 00:12:19,114 --> 00:12:21,449 It was a book on criminal law and procedure. 207 00:12:21,908 --> 00:12:25,245 And I was told that the chapter on insanity defenses 208 00:12:25,286 --> 00:12:26,746 was bookmarked. 209 00:12:27,706 --> 00:12:32,293 So it dawned on me later, I was probably being exploited 210 00:12:32,335 --> 00:12:33,920 so he could get it into evidence, 211 00:12:33,962 --> 00:12:36,006 he was perhaps schizophrenic 212 00:12:36,047 --> 00:12:38,008 or had some mental disease or defect. 213 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,387 And what better way to put an insanity defense out there 214 00:12:42,804 --> 00:12:44,139 than by making a statement 215 00:12:44,180 --> 00:12:47,308 and having some kid like me write every word 216 00:12:47,350 --> 00:12:49,894 that he was saying down. And then I’m going to testify. 217 00:12:49,936 --> 00:12:51,646 And I put his defense in for him. 218 00:12:52,564 --> 00:12:55,275 Gacy's lawyers claim he is a hopelessly sick madman 219 00:12:55,316 --> 00:12:58,153 who collected bodies and should be hospitalized for life. 220 00:12:58,611 --> 00:13:01,114 Prosecutors claim Gacy is a rational man 221 00:13:01,156 --> 00:13:02,741 who methodically planned the murders 222 00:13:02,782 --> 00:13:04,284 and should be sentenced to death. 223 00:13:04,743 --> 00:13:07,245 What I did not know about the insanity defense 224 00:13:07,287 --> 00:13:08,955 is that in the state of Illinois, 225 00:13:08,997 --> 00:13:11,458 when you plead not guilty by reason of insanity, 226 00:13:11,499 --> 00:13:14,002 you’re saying that you committed the crime 227 00:13:15,253 --> 00:13:17,255 but that you were insane at the time. 228 00:13:17,297 --> 00:13:20,675 So it’s not a question of innocence or guilt anymore. 229 00:13:20,717 --> 00:13:23,053 What they’re trying to do is, your whole trial now 230 00:13:23,094 --> 00:13:24,929 becomes an insanity trial 231 00:13:25,430 --> 00:13:28,892 where you’re to decide whether a person is sane or insane. 232 00:13:29,517 --> 00:13:33,063 If somebody killed 33 people and buried 29 of them 233 00:13:33,104 --> 00:13:36,191 under his house, you have to be crazy. 234 00:13:37,692 --> 00:13:39,652 So that was a given going in. 235 00:13:40,528 --> 00:13:43,990 And our job was going to be to show them the difference 236 00:13:44,032 --> 00:13:47,619 between crazy and legally responsible. 237 00:13:57,796 --> 00:14:00,173 When you’re preparing for a case like this, 238 00:14:00,215 --> 00:14:02,092 you’re there early in the morning, 239 00:14:02,842 --> 00:14:07,222 and it’s pretty dark by the time you leave, 240 00:14:07,263 --> 00:14:09,265 no matter what season it is. 241 00:14:10,642 --> 00:14:13,603 But you can look outside, and the seasons are passing. 242 00:14:15,146 --> 00:14:18,274 But you’ve lost all track of what season it is 243 00:14:18,316 --> 00:14:21,319 or whether you could be going to a baseball game 244 00:14:21,361 --> 00:14:26,032 or whether you should be skiing or anything like that. 245 00:14:26,074 --> 00:14:27,742 It’s a time warp. 246 00:14:32,330 --> 00:14:35,000 John Wayne Gacy went on trial today in Chicago, 247 00:14:35,041 --> 00:14:38,837 charged with the sex murders of 33 young men and boys. 248 00:14:38,878 --> 00:14:41,297 Some relatives of the 22 identified victims 249 00:14:41,339 --> 00:14:43,675 were in court for the opening statement. 250 00:14:43,717 --> 00:14:47,303 My mom and my dad and I, all three of us went, 251 00:14:47,345 --> 00:14:49,723 and my mother would go on the news 252 00:14:49,764 --> 00:14:53,685 as often as she could to prove that these kids 253 00:14:53,727 --> 00:14:58,565 were innocent young kids that didn’t deserve to die. 254 00:14:59,024 --> 00:15:00,400 If he can kill all those children, 255 00:15:00,442 --> 00:15:02,110 he should be dead too. 256 00:15:02,152 --> 00:15:04,654 If the childrens’ life didn’t mean anything to him, 257 00:15:05,196 --> 00:15:07,532 his life shouldn’t mean anything to this society, 258 00:15:08,033 --> 00:15:10,535 and that’s just how I feel for everybody. 259 00:15:10,577 --> 00:15:13,204 She believed that she had to be there 260 00:15:13,872 --> 00:15:15,665 to stand up for my brother 261 00:15:17,167 --> 00:15:20,003 because there were a lot of parents that didn’t come, 262 00:15:20,045 --> 00:15:23,965 but there were a small group. We came every day. 263 00:15:24,674 --> 00:15:27,552 At the time of the trial, I was working at a bank. 264 00:15:28,094 --> 00:15:29,679 And back in those days, 265 00:15:29,721 --> 00:15:32,223 the banks were closed on Wednesdays. 266 00:15:33,475 --> 00:15:37,228 And so every Wednesday, I was at the trial. 267 00:15:38,688 --> 00:15:44,069 It was very emotional, people sobbing, 268 00:15:44,903 --> 00:15:48,698 Most of them were parents, and here they’re sitting there 269 00:15:48,740 --> 00:15:53,411 listening to testimony on how their child got killed. 270 00:15:54,454 --> 00:15:57,082 It’s nothing anybody wants to hear. 271 00:15:58,166 --> 00:16:01,378 One witness fainted on the stand when the prosecution team 272 00:16:01,419 --> 00:16:03,838 showed her a bracelet belonging to her son. 273 00:16:05,924 --> 00:16:08,802 You have 2 years to prepare for this, 274 00:16:08,843 --> 00:16:11,429 but I had no clue 275 00:16:11,971 --> 00:16:16,726 that we had to go on the stand and identify Gacy. 276 00:16:16,768 --> 00:16:20,522 That was very eerie to me, and my dad, 277 00:16:20,563 --> 00:16:23,566 the day that he had to get up on the stand, 278 00:16:24,317 --> 00:16:26,569 my father kept crying. 279 00:16:26,611 --> 00:16:30,824 And my mother kept saying, "Buck up. You can do this." 280 00:16:30,865 --> 00:16:33,618 And that was the first or the second day. 281 00:16:33,660 --> 00:16:36,287 My dad never went again after that. 282 00:16:38,289 --> 00:16:40,417 Early on, we were using this big exhibit 283 00:16:40,458 --> 00:16:42,252 with three-sided frames 284 00:16:42,293 --> 00:16:43,920 to put all the life and death photos 285 00:16:43,962 --> 00:16:47,132 in while the victim’s parents or whatever were testifying. 286 00:16:48,008 --> 00:16:51,511 And after we did five or six of them, the defense objected. 287 00:16:52,679 --> 00:16:55,557 And the judge said, "All right. Here’s the rule. 288 00:16:55,598 --> 00:16:59,811 State, if you’re talking about a particular victim, 289 00:17:00,478 --> 00:17:02,147 and you want to use that board, 290 00:17:02,188 --> 00:17:05,900 you can have that victim’s photo in the board but none others. 291 00:17:05,942 --> 00:17:07,610 When you get to closing arguments, 292 00:17:07,652 --> 00:17:10,655 you can do whatever you want." Fine, Judge. 293 00:17:11,239 --> 00:17:17,370 So when we finished, we now have a board with 22 empty frames. 294 00:17:17,412 --> 00:17:19,789 It looked to me like 22 open graves. 295 00:17:21,249 --> 00:17:24,753 There were were some victims who were still not identified. 296 00:17:26,004 --> 00:17:28,465 We went to trial on all 33 murders, 297 00:17:28,882 --> 00:17:34,888 22 being identified at the time that we went to trial. 298 00:17:35,430 --> 00:17:37,057 But some were nameless. 299 00:17:38,516 --> 00:17:41,644 We also had the crawl-space opening sawed out 300 00:17:41,686 --> 00:17:43,480 so we could use it as an exhibit in court. 301 00:17:43,521 --> 00:17:46,274 It became one my biggest tools, 302 00:17:46,316 --> 00:17:49,861 having that crawl-space opening available as an exhibit. 303 00:17:51,905 --> 00:17:54,074 John Gacy sat erect in his chair today, 304 00:17:54,115 --> 00:17:56,701 showing no apparent emotion as the prosecution team 305 00:17:56,743 --> 00:17:59,329 continued to call parents of the alleged victims. 306 00:17:59,746 --> 00:18:02,665 They were naming all the victims. 307 00:18:02,707 --> 00:18:07,003 Their pictures were there, and they were going through 308 00:18:07,045 --> 00:18:10,423 and putting a name to a face for the jury. 309 00:18:11,216 --> 00:18:14,427 And when they got to my brother, 310 00:18:17,555 --> 00:18:20,642 Gacy just kind of smirked and chuckled. 311 00:18:22,143 --> 00:18:24,854 It’s like, he was silent the whole time, 312 00:18:24,896 --> 00:18:27,524 but with my brother, he laughed. 313 00:18:29,776 --> 00:18:32,737 It was very difficult to look at him, 314 00:18:33,321 --> 00:18:36,533 but I remember seeing him sitting over there, 315 00:18:36,574 --> 00:18:38,326 and I kept thinking, 316 00:18:38,368 --> 00:18:42,247 "Boy, you really fooled so many people." 317 00:18:42,747 --> 00:18:45,750 I think he thought he would never be caught. 318 00:18:48,169 --> 00:18:50,338 Police told the court Gacy became friendly 319 00:18:50,380 --> 00:18:52,007 with a police-surveillance team 320 00:18:52,048 --> 00:18:54,050 that trailed him as part of the investigation 321 00:18:54,092 --> 00:18:57,053 into the disappearance of 15-year-old Robert Piest. 322 00:18:58,430 --> 00:19:00,223 Gacy and I had this relationship 323 00:19:00,265 --> 00:19:01,766 from the surveillance. 324 00:19:02,267 --> 00:19:04,936 When you’re there and you’re testifying, 325 00:19:05,687 --> 00:19:08,773 you’re impacted by what you’re saying, 326 00:19:08,815 --> 00:19:11,484 and you’re seeing the reaction of this jury, 327 00:19:11,985 --> 00:19:13,236 which affects you too 328 00:19:13,278 --> 00:19:15,822 because you’re answering your questions honestly, 329 00:19:15,864 --> 00:19:19,451 and when you're describing in detail what John Gacy did, 330 00:19:22,412 --> 00:19:24,122 you can see their reaction. 331 00:19:24,914 --> 00:19:27,542 One by one, the witnesses described how they found 332 00:19:27,584 --> 00:19:31,504 the remains of the victims, some buried on top of others, 333 00:19:31,546 --> 00:19:33,757 many with a piece of cloth in the mouth 334 00:19:33,798 --> 00:19:36,051 and some with ropes tied around the necks. 335 00:19:37,802 --> 00:19:40,597 We did learn that at the trial, 336 00:19:41,264 --> 00:19:44,392 Gacy would do different things to the boys, 337 00:19:44,434 --> 00:19:46,561 and one of the things they said 338 00:19:46,603 --> 00:19:49,147 that he would do this trick with cuffs. 339 00:19:49,189 --> 00:19:51,941 And I know it came out that he did something 340 00:19:51,983 --> 00:19:56,780 with my brother’s arms, put cuffs on him or something, 341 00:19:56,821 --> 00:20:00,992 and then he would put something on them, so they would pass out. 342 00:20:05,288 --> 00:20:09,501 Gacy could’ve had two personalities, but I don’t care. 343 00:20:11,419 --> 00:20:12,962 Let’s put it this way. 344 00:20:13,004 --> 00:20:16,591 I believe somebody has to be insane to do what he did, 345 00:20:17,008 --> 00:20:21,554 but that’s too bad. You still killed 33 victims. 346 00:20:21,596 --> 00:20:26,184 And I don’t care if you were insane or not, he was wrong. 347 00:20:26,810 --> 00:20:31,648 He was wrong to destroy 33 families. 348 00:20:42,158 --> 00:20:43,827 What’s going on? 349 00:20:44,327 --> 00:20:50,375 [ Chatter ] 350 00:20:50,417 --> 00:20:55,005 It was becoming a media frenzy 351 00:20:55,046 --> 00:20:57,841 for finding anything relating to it. 352 00:20:59,092 --> 00:21:03,388 The "Chicago Tribune" was the first to track me down. 353 00:21:04,180 --> 00:21:06,975 And they interviewed me at the time. 354 00:21:08,226 --> 00:21:11,604 I believe the police read the the story in the "Tribune" 355 00:21:11,646 --> 00:21:13,314 and brought me in for questioning. 356 00:21:13,356 --> 00:21:15,859 And at some point, they told me that they would like me 357 00:21:15,900 --> 00:21:19,946 to testify as a prosecution witness. 358 00:21:19,988 --> 00:21:24,284 The victims who survived their encounters with Gacy 359 00:21:24,325 --> 00:21:27,620 became a crucial piece of the case against him. 360 00:21:28,538 --> 00:21:34,294 And they described indescribable events. 361 00:21:36,379 --> 00:21:40,091 I came out, sat in, got sworn in, did what I did. 362 00:21:41,217 --> 00:21:46,222 My testimony was that one time in 1976, 363 00:21:46,890 --> 00:21:49,059 John came over in the evening. 364 00:21:49,809 --> 00:21:52,604 I was closer to 17 at that point. 365 00:21:53,438 --> 00:21:55,231 He knew my parents weren’t home. 366 00:21:57,025 --> 00:22:03,907 And it was about 10:30 at night. He said he had some stag films. 367 00:22:03,948 --> 00:22:05,533 That’s what they called them then. 368 00:22:05,575 --> 00:22:06,785 And it was on a ... 369 00:22:06,826 --> 00:22:08,745 He had a little projector with him. 370 00:22:09,788 --> 00:22:12,123 He brought that in, and he set that up. 371 00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:15,126 And then something he did ... 372 00:22:15,168 --> 00:22:17,587 He knew I was a high school wrestler, so he said, 373 00:22:17,629 --> 00:22:19,047 "Hey, come on, big wrestler guy." 374 00:22:19,089 --> 00:22:21,174 He started wrestling around with me. 375 00:22:23,551 --> 00:22:28,723 And at one point he gets a handcuff on one of my wrists. 376 00:22:30,350 --> 00:22:31,726 I fought valiantly, 377 00:22:31,768 --> 00:22:33,853 but he did get my other wrist in a handcuff. 378 00:22:34,396 --> 00:22:36,606 And he knocked me down to the floor. 379 00:22:37,399 --> 00:22:41,069 He unbuttoned my pants and pulled them down a little bit, 380 00:22:41,111 --> 00:22:45,115 but not my underwear, and then he left the room. 381 00:22:46,783 --> 00:22:48,243 And because I was fighting 382 00:22:48,284 --> 00:22:50,328 when he was trying to get that second cuff on me, 383 00:22:50,370 --> 00:22:53,081 I noticed that it wasn’t very tight. 384 00:22:54,082 --> 00:23:00,338 So I was able to pull my hand, quite painfully, to get it. 385 00:23:00,380 --> 00:23:02,090 I actually got out of the cuff, 386 00:23:06,136 --> 00:23:09,681 and he came back into the room a couple minutes later. 387 00:23:09,723 --> 00:23:15,770 And I hit him with a double-leg takedown, a wrestling move, 388 00:23:15,812 --> 00:23:17,981 and just dropped him right to the floor. 389 00:23:19,024 --> 00:23:22,360 I kept my weight on his back to keep him down. 390 00:23:22,402 --> 00:23:24,362 And I reached in his pocket, 391 00:23:24,863 --> 00:23:26,948 and I got the key to the handcuffs, 392 00:23:26,990 --> 00:23:29,659 and I got his arms behind him, handcuffed him. 393 00:23:29,701 --> 00:23:31,870 And he’s laying facedown on the floor, 394 00:23:31,911 --> 00:23:33,621 handcuffed behind his back. 395 00:23:34,330 --> 00:23:36,124 I let him stay there for a little while 396 00:23:36,166 --> 00:23:40,086 and made sure he calmed down. And then I unhandcuffed him, 397 00:23:40,128 --> 00:23:41,421 and to be perfectly honest with you, 398 00:23:41,463 --> 00:23:43,548 I think I freaked him out a little bit. 399 00:23:44,132 --> 00:23:46,718 And then he said a very unique thing. 400 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:48,636 He said, and I’ll quote. He goes, 401 00:23:48,678 --> 00:23:52,307 "You’re the only one that not only got out of the handcuffs. 402 00:23:52,349 --> 00:23:54,017 You got them on me." 403 00:23:55,185 --> 00:24:00,190 Maybe part of my calm response to it was that at that point, 404 00:24:00,231 --> 00:24:02,525 I had a very optimistic view of humanity. 405 00:24:02,567 --> 00:24:05,737 He could’ve done something to overpower me 406 00:24:05,779 --> 00:24:08,406 and continue on, but he didn’t. 407 00:24:09,366 --> 00:24:11,951 And I thank God for that, certainly. 408 00:24:12,452 --> 00:24:14,371 He gets this in his mind to do this, 409 00:24:14,412 --> 00:24:17,916 and he’s going to rape you and kill you 410 00:24:17,957 --> 00:24:19,334 and all these kind of things. 411 00:24:19,376 --> 00:24:21,836 And then something happens that snaps him back 412 00:24:21,878 --> 00:24:24,798 to the more normal personality. 413 00:24:25,215 --> 00:24:27,676 I suppose in retrospect, getting out of the handcuffs, 414 00:24:27,717 --> 00:24:30,929 the first thing I should’ve done is just run like hell. 415 00:24:37,352 --> 00:24:41,272 A lot of the early witnesses had already testified 416 00:24:41,314 --> 00:24:44,651 by the time I got there on 25th of February, 417 00:24:45,235 --> 00:24:48,279 and I was about to testify against a guy 418 00:24:48,321 --> 00:24:51,449 who, once upon a time, was one of my closest friends. 419 00:24:53,451 --> 00:24:56,955 The young man who was scheduled to testify before me 420 00:24:56,996 --> 00:25:00,709 was a kid from Waterloo that Gacy had molested. 421 00:25:01,418 --> 00:25:04,170 Donald was in the same hotel I was. 422 00:25:04,212 --> 00:25:06,923 He was literally right across the hall from me, 423 00:25:07,590 --> 00:25:11,386 and I saw him sitting out there, waiting to testify, 424 00:25:11,428 --> 00:25:16,099 and I knew immediately that he was just blind drunk, 425 00:25:16,599 --> 00:25:21,938 just blind drunk and on the edge of hysteria. 426 00:25:22,439 --> 00:25:24,232 I knew he had been drunk the night before 427 00:25:24,274 --> 00:25:28,194 because I found him knocking on my door at 3:30 in the morning. 428 00:25:29,112 --> 00:25:31,489 He was sitting out there in the hallway at the hotel, 429 00:25:31,531 --> 00:25:34,409 crying like a baby. He didn't want to be there. 430 00:25:34,451 --> 00:25:36,411 He didn't want to talk about this. 431 00:25:37,078 --> 00:25:38,913 The witness appeared unable to answer 432 00:25:38,955 --> 00:25:40,623 even the simplest questions. 433 00:25:41,458 --> 00:25:44,085 Judge Garippo finally dismissed the witness 434 00:25:44,127 --> 00:25:47,172 and ordered the jury to disregard what he had said. 435 00:25:48,381 --> 00:25:51,176 The judge did the right thing by excusing him 436 00:25:51,217 --> 00:25:54,637 because he was a survivor but not a complete survivor. 437 00:25:55,305 --> 00:25:57,474 I have a feeling his life was just ... 438 00:25:58,141 --> 00:26:00,560 It was an ongoing Gacy nightmare. 439 00:26:03,355 --> 00:26:06,775 After we got out of prison in the summer of ’70, 440 00:26:06,816 --> 00:26:09,944 I never physically laid eyes on John again 441 00:26:10,403 --> 00:26:14,699 until I testified against him in 1980. 442 00:26:15,158 --> 00:26:17,369 They brought me in to testify for two reasons. 443 00:26:17,410 --> 00:26:21,289 Number one, I knew John Gacy, and I knew him well. 444 00:26:21,331 --> 00:26:24,668 But, number two, I was already a recognized expert 445 00:26:24,709 --> 00:26:26,169 in criminal justice by then. 446 00:26:26,211 --> 00:26:29,089 I’d been working for the state for 8 years, 447 00:26:29,130 --> 00:26:31,591 dealing with prison inmates every day. 448 00:26:34,469 --> 00:26:37,389 By then, I knew about those 33 bodies. 449 00:26:38,348 --> 00:26:41,518 For several years, I had a recurring nightmare 450 00:26:42,018 --> 00:26:45,146 that a knock would come on my door 451 00:26:45,689 --> 00:26:47,148 in the middle of the night, 452 00:26:47,190 --> 00:26:51,569 and I’d open the door, and it would be John Gacy, 453 00:26:51,611 --> 00:26:55,281 who’d whip a cord around my neck and start to strangle me. 454 00:26:57,575 --> 00:27:00,245 I got on the witness stand, and John is sitting there, 455 00:27:00,286 --> 00:27:02,497 looking at me the whole time. 456 00:27:02,539 --> 00:27:04,874 John’s sitting there, staring at me. 457 00:27:05,875 --> 00:27:07,585 And I’m looking right back at him 458 00:27:07,627 --> 00:27:11,381 because that’s how you deal with that kind of thing. 459 00:27:11,423 --> 00:27:15,093 If you have to face fear, the best way to deal with fear 460 00:27:15,135 --> 00:27:18,304 is to grab it and hold it until it’s not scary anymore. 461 00:27:19,264 --> 00:27:21,433 After I got off the witness stand, 462 00:27:21,474 --> 00:27:24,310 I did what I think every grown man would like 463 00:27:24,352 --> 00:27:27,689 to be able to do now and then. I went home to see my mother. 464 00:27:27,731 --> 00:27:34,904 And I vividly remember saying to her that he looked so ordinary. 465 00:27:36,322 --> 00:27:38,867 And my mother looked me in the eye and she said, 466 00:27:38,908 --> 00:27:42,078 "Who ever told you the devil was ugly?" 467 00:27:53,173 --> 00:27:55,800 John, how about Tim McCoy, the last one of the five 468 00:27:55,842 --> 00:27:57,302 you say you had personal knowledge of? 469 00:27:57,344 --> 00:27:58,678 Tim McCoy, even though he’s the last one, 470 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,055 he’s the first one. 471 00:28:00,096 --> 00:28:01,681 He’s the first one actually? Right. 472 00:28:01,723 --> 00:28:03,391 The first of the 33? 473 00:28:04,309 --> 00:28:06,478 Tim McCoy was the first one, 474 00:28:07,062 --> 00:28:12,901 and Tim McCoy’s name wasn’t put on him until 1988. 475 00:28:13,443 --> 00:28:15,820 Prior to that, he was known as unknown number nine. 476 00:28:15,862 --> 00:28:17,238 Uh-huh. 477 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:18,948 And he was buried by me in the crawl space. 478 00:28:18,990 --> 00:28:20,450 Uh-huh. 479 00:28:20,492 --> 00:28:22,077 That’s the only knowledge that I have of it. 480 00:28:22,118 --> 00:28:23,912 What was the circumstances of that? 481 00:28:24,329 --> 00:28:27,791 He was killed in the house in self-defense. 482 00:28:27,832 --> 00:28:30,377 And who killed him then? I stabbed him. 483 00:28:30,418 --> 00:28:33,171 Yeah, and it was ... Initially, it was self-defense? 484 00:28:33,213 --> 00:28:35,548 Why? Was he in the process of assaulting you or what? 485 00:28:35,590 --> 00:28:37,008 He was coming at me with a knife. 486 00:28:37,050 --> 00:28:38,635 Mm-hmm. 487 00:28:38,677 --> 00:28:40,470 I just took the knife away and twisted it in his hand, 488 00:28:40,512 --> 00:28:44,766 and that is what killed him. So ... 489 00:28:44,808 --> 00:28:46,226 At that point, 490 00:28:46,267 --> 00:28:48,478 you yourself did bury him then in the crawl space? 491 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,731 Right, and if you notice, he’s under concrete. 492 00:28:51,773 --> 00:28:54,150 Did you bury any of the others in the crawl space? 493 00:28:54,192 --> 00:28:56,736 No. I had nothing ... I had no knowledge of them. 494 00:28:56,778 --> 00:28:59,656 Well, why is it that your first one is there 495 00:28:59,698 --> 00:29:03,493 and then twentysome others are buried down there as well? 496 00:29:03,535 --> 00:29:06,037 Did somebody know that you had done this with the first one, 497 00:29:06,079 --> 00:29:07,247 giving them the idea? 498 00:29:07,288 --> 00:29:08,498 More than likely when drinking 499 00:29:08,540 --> 00:29:10,875 and getting high with the others, yeah. 500 00:29:10,917 --> 00:29:12,460 Admitting it to them. 501 00:29:12,502 --> 00:29:14,921 So you feel others then followed your suit 502 00:29:14,963 --> 00:29:17,382 in using this as a burial ground? 503 00:29:18,174 --> 00:29:19,843 Without a doubt. Yeah. 504 00:29:20,635 --> 00:29:22,595 Since the beginning, there has been speculation 505 00:29:22,637 --> 00:29:26,016 that Gacy had an accomplice, and today for the first time, 506 00:29:26,057 --> 00:29:28,727 it was revealed that Gacy told a psychiatrist 507 00:29:28,768 --> 00:29:31,771 that someone besides himself knew the dead bodies 508 00:29:31,813 --> 00:29:33,606 were buried under the house. 509 00:29:33,648 --> 00:29:36,609 At the beginning, authorities were very, 510 00:29:36,651 --> 00:29:41,156 very interested in others who might have been accomplices, 511 00:29:41,197 --> 00:29:45,702 procurers or enablers or assistants. 512 00:29:46,911 --> 00:29:50,623 Michael Rossi and David Cram would dig trenches down 513 00:29:50,665 --> 00:29:55,462 in the crawl space. And Gacy did say that these boys 514 00:29:55,503 --> 00:29:57,672 should’ve have known what they were doing. 515 00:29:57,714 --> 00:30:00,258 He told them not to dig in a certain area. 516 00:30:00,300 --> 00:30:03,386 That certain area was where Gacy had buried a body, 517 00:30:03,428 --> 00:30:07,432 and Gacy said he became very, very angry with them 518 00:30:07,474 --> 00:30:09,893 for getting too close to that area. 519 00:30:10,769 --> 00:30:13,646 John Gacy was a liar, so anything he said, 520 00:30:13,688 --> 00:30:15,774 you had to take with a grain of salt. 521 00:30:16,483 --> 00:30:18,818 The investigators' gut feeling was that 522 00:30:18,860 --> 00:30:22,238 they might’ve been knowing a lot more than they were letting on, 523 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,325 but they grilled them constantly. 524 00:30:25,367 --> 00:30:28,370 They corroborated things, and the bottom line was, 525 00:30:28,411 --> 00:30:30,663 no, they wound up as state witnesses. 526 00:30:30,705 --> 00:30:33,249 They were the ones who could put the description 527 00:30:33,291 --> 00:30:34,876 of the crawl space. 528 00:30:34,918 --> 00:30:38,171 They’re the ones who could say, "Yes, this is what we did, 529 00:30:38,213 --> 00:30:41,091 and we did it because he paid us to do it. 530 00:30:42,342 --> 00:30:44,511 This is why we dug the trenches. 531 00:30:44,552 --> 00:30:47,389 This is why we put the lime on there," 532 00:30:47,430 --> 00:30:50,266 and those are important things to get before a jury. 533 00:30:50,308 --> 00:30:53,269 And we just thought it outweighed any doubt 534 00:30:53,311 --> 00:30:54,813 that they may give the jury 535 00:30:54,854 --> 00:30:56,731 that they weren’t telling the truth about that. 536 00:30:57,232 --> 00:31:01,027 When those two young men, Michael Rossi and David Cram, 537 00:31:01,069 --> 00:31:03,363 wound up testifying against Gacy, 538 00:31:03,405 --> 00:31:05,782 Vivian Rosenberg was our reporter at the trial. 539 00:31:05,824 --> 00:31:07,367 She covered it. 540 00:31:07,409 --> 00:31:09,744 David Cram, 22, today’s star witness was a favorite 541 00:31:09,786 --> 00:31:12,997 and steady employee of John Gacy who lived with him for a month. 542 00:31:13,039 --> 00:31:15,583 It was when Cram demonstrated how he kneeled to dig 543 00:31:15,625 --> 00:31:17,877 two trenches in Gacy’s crawl space 544 00:31:17,919 --> 00:31:20,380 that some jurors stood up for a better look. 545 00:31:20,422 --> 00:31:21,923 In the center of the courtroom floor, 546 00:31:21,965 --> 00:31:25,260 the crawl-space entrance, taken from Gacy’s home. 547 00:31:25,301 --> 00:31:27,303 Cram spoke of the dirt mounds 548 00:31:27,345 --> 00:31:30,390 sitting nearby as he dug for 4 or 5 hours. 549 00:31:30,432 --> 00:31:32,350 He thought it was a plumbing project. 550 00:31:32,976 --> 00:31:36,855 Cram was able to talk about conversations with Gacy 551 00:31:37,272 --> 00:31:39,733 and that he knew where he wanted things dug. 552 00:31:39,774 --> 00:31:42,235 All of that goes toward showing that 553 00:31:42,277 --> 00:31:44,571 somebody was doing something sane at that time. 554 00:31:45,071 --> 00:31:47,782 In later testimony, Cram took the Fifth Amendment 555 00:31:47,824 --> 00:31:51,578 several times as both defense and prosecution asked him 556 00:31:51,619 --> 00:31:53,955 if he ever had sex with John Gacy. 557 00:31:54,622 --> 00:31:58,626 The defendant kept his eyes on the youth all the time, smiling. 558 00:32:00,462 --> 00:32:02,255 Witness number two, Michael Rossi, 559 00:32:02,297 --> 00:32:04,424 was called late Tuesday afternoon. 560 00:32:04,466 --> 00:32:06,217 He said he moved in with John Gacy 561 00:32:06,259 --> 00:32:07,719 when David Cram moved out. 562 00:32:08,136 --> 00:32:11,639 He said Gacy ordered him to pour hundreds of pounds of lime 563 00:32:11,681 --> 00:32:16,269 in the crawl space to get rid of what Gacy called the foul odor. 564 00:32:17,270 --> 00:32:19,105 Rossi and Gacy seemed to have 565 00:32:19,147 --> 00:32:21,274 kind of a father-son relationship, 566 00:32:21,316 --> 00:32:23,777 and later I found out police documented 567 00:32:23,818 --> 00:32:27,238 Rossi admitting to a sexual relationship with Gacy, 568 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,199 but Rossi then denied it on the stand. 569 00:32:29,741 --> 00:32:32,118 Rossi denied that he had any involvement 570 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:33,745 with the murders. 571 00:32:33,787 --> 00:32:37,290 I didn’t necessarily believe Rossi from the get-go. 572 00:32:37,332 --> 00:32:39,334 But he lawyered up right away. 573 00:32:39,376 --> 00:32:43,338 He was not cooperative with us at any time, 574 00:32:43,380 --> 00:32:45,340 to be honest with you. And it took quite a while 575 00:32:45,382 --> 00:32:49,302 to convince his side that he should testify. 576 00:32:50,637 --> 00:32:53,139 Rossi's legal representation alone 577 00:32:53,181 --> 00:32:56,017 was a newsworthy part of his courtroom appearance. 578 00:32:56,643 --> 00:32:58,186 Rossi was accompanied into court 579 00:32:58,228 --> 00:33:01,064 by former Cook County State’s Attorney Ed Hanrahan. 580 00:33:01,856 --> 00:33:05,902 Ed Hanrahan was a former Cook County State’s Attorney 581 00:33:05,944 --> 00:33:08,905 who was a prominent name in the Democratic party. 582 00:33:08,947 --> 00:33:10,740 I thought that it was odd. 583 00:33:10,782 --> 00:33:15,704 It would seem like a kid from the northwest side 584 00:33:15,745 --> 00:33:17,914 to get one of the most prominent names 585 00:33:17,956 --> 00:33:21,876 in the legal circles in Chicago as his attorney was unusual. 586 00:33:22,377 --> 00:33:26,798 There wasn’t a whole lot in the press about Michael Rossi, 587 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,886 other than he was the owner of my brother’s car. 588 00:33:34,806 --> 00:33:39,060 Then he shows up to court with the best lawyer money can buy. 589 00:33:39,728 --> 00:33:43,440 Rossi was involved in a slip-up Gacy made, 590 00:33:44,357 --> 00:33:46,901 taking victim John Szyc’s car 591 00:33:47,777 --> 00:33:51,823 and transferring the title over to Rossi. 592 00:33:52,824 --> 00:33:54,743 I never heard the name Mike Rossi. 593 00:33:54,784 --> 00:33:57,495 It wasn’t like he was a friend of my brother’s or anything, 594 00:33:58,204 --> 00:34:03,209 so it’s like, "Well, why does this guy have my brother’s car?" 595 00:34:04,002 --> 00:34:07,422 It just didn’t make sense. If he bought the car from him, 596 00:34:07,464 --> 00:34:09,924 he should have at least known him a little bit. 597 00:34:11,801 --> 00:34:14,804 The car was supposedly sold to Gacy. 598 00:34:15,430 --> 00:34:18,224 Gacy then sold the car to Mike Rossi, 599 00:34:18,767 --> 00:34:20,685 so that would’ve, quote, 600 00:34:20,727 --> 00:34:25,648 explained how Mike Rossi had no clue who my brother was. 601 00:34:27,150 --> 00:34:28,360 Michael Rossi was driving 602 00:34:28,401 --> 00:34:29,903 the car of one of Gacy’s victims, 603 00:34:29,944 --> 00:34:32,447 and Gacy said that he told the young man, 604 00:34:32,489 --> 00:34:34,574 "The last owner of this car is dead." 605 00:34:34,616 --> 00:34:39,621 I just want to highlight on John Szyc. 606 00:34:40,163 --> 00:34:42,415 They want to make such an issue over John Szyc 607 00:34:42,457 --> 00:34:43,792 and his disappearance. 608 00:34:43,833 --> 00:34:46,086 I think he was killed for his car, personally. 609 00:34:46,127 --> 00:34:50,715 And your personal knowledge of the Szyc case, then, is ... 610 00:34:50,757 --> 00:34:52,509 My personal knowledge of the Szyc case 611 00:34:52,550 --> 00:34:55,095 is that I had come home, 612 00:34:55,595 --> 00:34:57,806 and Szyc and Rossi were at the house. 613 00:34:57,847 --> 00:34:59,599 I had a few drinks. I went to bed. 614 00:34:59,641 --> 00:35:03,436 Went I woke up the next morning, Rossi was sleeping on the couch, 615 00:35:03,478 --> 00:35:05,146 and Szyc was dead on the floor. 616 00:35:05,730 --> 00:35:10,735 I went about my own business, and he was gone later on. 617 00:35:10,777 --> 00:35:12,445 And where did he go? Where did he end up? 618 00:35:12,487 --> 00:35:14,072 I assume he ended up in the crawl space. 619 00:35:14,114 --> 00:35:16,241 Did you see him being transported down there? 620 00:35:16,282 --> 00:35:20,078 No, wasn’t present, didn’t do the transporting. 621 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,539 But when he was dead, he was dead on the floor? 622 00:35:22,580 --> 00:35:24,541 He was dead on the floor, yes, in the hallway. 623 00:35:24,582 --> 00:35:27,085 Did you have a conversation with anybody about that? 624 00:35:27,127 --> 00:35:30,630 No. In other words, I just kept my mouth shut 625 00:35:30,672 --> 00:35:32,132 because I didn’t want to get involved. 626 00:35:32,173 --> 00:35:33,383 Mm-hmm. 627 00:35:33,425 --> 00:35:34,884 My idea was to just stay out of it. 628 00:35:34,926 --> 00:35:36,094 Mm-hmm. 629 00:35:36,136 --> 00:35:38,096 John Wayne Gacy was a pathological liar. 630 00:35:39,180 --> 00:35:41,808 If Rossi and Cram were involved in the murders, 631 00:35:42,517 --> 00:35:46,146 then Gacy would’ve told us that up front 632 00:35:46,187 --> 00:35:49,816 if he thought it would help him. Both of them denied 633 00:35:49,858 --> 00:35:54,154 being part of the scheme to kill or bury bodies. 634 00:35:54,821 --> 00:35:59,784 But I would have to think that they had reason to suspect 635 00:35:59,826 --> 00:36:01,828 they were in the presence of evil 636 00:36:01,870 --> 00:36:04,664 and doing something that they shouldn’t be doing. 637 00:36:04,706 --> 00:36:07,709 I suspect that they knew more than they were letting on. 638 00:36:10,045 --> 00:36:13,173 I think Gacy killed them. There’s no doubt there. 639 00:36:13,214 --> 00:36:14,549 I’m not questioning that. 640 00:36:14,591 --> 00:36:18,428 But I think he had assistance in burying them. 641 00:36:19,763 --> 00:36:21,890 He could barely fit down there himself. 642 00:36:22,265 --> 00:36:25,435 If he had to have somebody else dig the hole for him, 643 00:36:25,477 --> 00:36:27,896 how is he burying the body by himself? 644 00:36:28,730 --> 00:36:30,940 He would have just dug the hole himself, 645 00:36:31,399 --> 00:36:33,109 and nobody would’ve known. 646 00:36:33,902 --> 00:36:37,155 So the stories don’t all connect. 647 00:36:38,573 --> 00:36:40,283 The stories don’t all connect. 648 00:36:41,034 --> 00:36:43,703 The state has rested its case in the trial 649 00:36:43,745 --> 00:36:46,206 of alleged mass murderer John Wayne Gacy. 650 00:36:46,790 --> 00:36:49,542 John Gacy’s attorneys began their defense 651 00:36:49,584 --> 00:36:50,919 and their first witness 652 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,505 was an alleged Gacy victim, Jeff Rignall. 653 00:36:53,922 --> 00:36:56,383 Rignall told the court that he met John Gacy 654 00:36:56,424 --> 00:36:58,468 March 21st, 1978. 655 00:36:58,968 --> 00:37:01,054 He said that Gacy offered him marijuana 656 00:37:01,096 --> 00:37:04,099 and then drugged him by placing a rag over his face. 657 00:37:05,266 --> 00:37:06,893 So Rignall comes in, 658 00:37:06,935 --> 00:37:10,188 and he’s going to be a witness for the prosecution, 659 00:37:10,230 --> 00:37:11,898 one of our living victims. 660 00:37:12,857 --> 00:37:14,234 I don’t know if he’d mentioned it 661 00:37:14,275 --> 00:37:15,902 or someone had told me 662 00:37:15,944 --> 00:37:17,987 that there was a book in the offing. 663 00:37:18,988 --> 00:37:20,407 I said Jeff, 664 00:37:20,448 --> 00:37:22,617 I’m not going to have the defense cross-examining you 665 00:37:22,659 --> 00:37:25,412 out of something that you said in your book that’s different 666 00:37:25,453 --> 00:37:27,163 from what you say on the stand, 667 00:37:27,622 --> 00:37:29,708 and regardless of which is correct, 668 00:37:31,334 --> 00:37:33,044 there’s just no reason for that. 669 00:37:34,004 --> 00:37:36,548 That’s your decision, but I’m just telling you up front. 670 00:37:36,589 --> 00:37:38,466 If you put a book out, 671 00:37:39,509 --> 00:37:41,970 you’re not going to be my witness, end of story. 672 00:37:42,637 --> 00:37:44,347 "Oh, yeah. I understand. I understand." 673 00:37:44,389 --> 00:37:46,141 Of course, he puts the book out. 674 00:37:47,267 --> 00:37:49,352 So I said, "We’re not putting you on." 675 00:37:50,395 --> 00:37:54,482 Jeff wanted to testify for the prosecution, 676 00:37:56,151 --> 00:37:59,237 but when he found out that they weren’t going to call him, 677 00:37:59,654 --> 00:38:01,322 he was very upset. 678 00:38:01,990 --> 00:38:05,618 And when he found out that the defense would call him, 679 00:38:06,661 --> 00:38:09,247 he decided he would definitely testify 680 00:38:09,289 --> 00:38:11,958 so he could get the story out. 681 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,920 It was so unbelievable that I blotted it out 682 00:38:15,962 --> 00:38:19,799 and found it hard to believe myself that it happened to me, 683 00:38:19,841 --> 00:38:23,011 and that's why I persisted on my own 684 00:38:23,053 --> 00:38:25,680 in finding the man who had done this to me, 685 00:38:25,722 --> 00:38:28,892 even though the police refused to acknowledge 686 00:38:28,933 --> 00:38:31,186 or believe anything that I told them. 687 00:38:31,811 --> 00:38:34,314 Rignall said that he woke up in Gacy’s house 688 00:38:34,356 --> 00:38:35,648 with the suburban contractor 689 00:38:35,690 --> 00:38:38,068 standing behind a bar mixing a drink. 690 00:38:38,651 --> 00:38:41,363 Rignall said that he was in a semiconscious state, 691 00:38:41,404 --> 00:38:43,156 but he heard John Gacy say, 692 00:38:43,198 --> 00:38:45,533 "I’d just as soon kill you as look at you." 693 00:38:46,159 --> 00:38:49,037 The defense thought Jeff was a perfect witness 694 00:38:49,496 --> 00:38:53,541 because all along, he said, "That man had to be crazy 695 00:38:54,334 --> 00:38:59,714 in order to do these horrific deeds to people." 696 00:39:01,007 --> 00:39:03,176 Rignall described how Gacy stretched his arms 697 00:39:03,218 --> 00:39:05,178 across a two-by-four as he performed 698 00:39:05,220 --> 00:39:08,181 various deviant acts before chloroforming him 699 00:39:08,223 --> 00:39:10,725 once again and dumping him in a city park. 700 00:39:11,184 --> 00:39:14,312 When Jeff was testifying, he could get through part of it, 701 00:39:14,729 --> 00:39:18,983 and he would just nervously almost collapse. 702 00:39:19,025 --> 00:39:21,820 He started to describe that, "He handcuffed me, 703 00:39:21,861 --> 00:39:25,448 chloroformed me, poked me, beat me." 704 00:39:26,074 --> 00:39:30,036 He got so upset describing things that he threw up 705 00:39:30,078 --> 00:39:33,373 all over the courthouse. And they had to close 706 00:39:33,415 --> 00:39:35,709 the courthouse down in order to clean it up. 707 00:39:35,750 --> 00:39:37,252 Rignall collapsed on the witness stand, 708 00:39:37,293 --> 00:39:40,046 and deputies hurried him out of the courtroom. 709 00:39:40,088 --> 00:39:44,592 And he was able to proceed with his testimony after that. 710 00:39:45,218 --> 00:39:48,263 On the stand today, after Judge Garippo called a recess, 711 00:39:48,304 --> 00:39:51,808 Rignall revealed something that he did not say in our interview. 712 00:39:51,850 --> 00:39:54,477 He told the court a third person was in the Gacy house 713 00:39:54,519 --> 00:39:57,397 the night he says he was raped, and he said it appeared 714 00:39:57,439 --> 00:40:00,608 to be a man with light hair parted in the middle. 715 00:40:02,610 --> 00:40:04,279 Where Jeff was being tortured, 716 00:40:04,988 --> 00:40:07,282 there was a doorway behind him. 717 00:40:07,323 --> 00:40:11,286 And it had a glass-type partition window in it. 718 00:40:13,913 --> 00:40:16,416 He could tell that there was a light that switched on 719 00:40:16,458 --> 00:40:18,043 because it was darker 720 00:40:18,084 --> 00:40:20,587 and then all of a sudden a little bit lighter. 721 00:40:20,628 --> 00:40:24,257 Jeff thought, "Maybe there’s somebody else in here." 722 00:40:27,385 --> 00:40:33,141 And then he got beat up and chloroformed, 723 00:40:33,808 --> 00:40:35,685 and the light was gone. 724 00:40:36,978 --> 00:40:43,318 Jeff testified that he thought he came to 725 00:40:44,069 --> 00:40:45,737 while he was being molested 726 00:40:46,196 --> 00:40:52,160 and that there was another person giving him oral sex, 727 00:40:53,328 --> 00:40:56,956 with kind of a light hair parted in the center. 728 00:40:56,998 --> 00:40:59,334 By my medical records and by my doctors. 729 00:40:59,376 --> 00:41:02,671 we feel that I was abused by more than one person. 730 00:41:03,755 --> 00:41:04,923 I kind of find it hard 731 00:41:04,964 --> 00:41:07,967 to see that Gacy did all that by himself. 732 00:41:15,642 --> 00:41:17,268 The defense established today 733 00:41:17,310 --> 00:41:20,980 that the man accused of 33 murders had a stormy childhood. 734 00:41:21,815 --> 00:41:25,860 His mother, Mrs. Marion Gacy, testified on her son’s behalf. 735 00:41:27,487 --> 00:41:29,489 My mom testified first. 736 00:41:30,365 --> 00:41:35,954 She wasn’t a well person, always had to use a cane or a walker. 737 00:41:35,995 --> 00:41:37,789 She said that John was a sleepwalker 738 00:41:37,831 --> 00:41:39,874 when he was only 3 years old, 739 00:41:39,916 --> 00:41:41,793 and a grammar school teacher recommended 740 00:41:41,835 --> 00:41:43,962 that he be transferred to a special school 741 00:41:44,004 --> 00:41:46,548 for what she called disabled kids. 742 00:41:46,589 --> 00:41:48,133 She said that he was hospitalized 743 00:41:48,174 --> 00:41:50,010 3 weeks with a head injury. 744 00:41:50,844 --> 00:41:53,138 He worked at a grocery store. 745 00:41:53,179 --> 00:41:55,473 He fell down three flights of stairs, 746 00:41:55,849 --> 00:41:57,517 and he had hit his head, 747 00:41:57,559 --> 00:42:01,312 and then he started having episodes with passing out. 748 00:42:02,355 --> 00:42:04,816 John, let’s step back to your childhood. 749 00:42:04,858 --> 00:42:07,110 What was your state of health as a child? 750 00:42:07,569 --> 00:42:08,820 At the age of 10, I was told 751 00:42:08,862 --> 00:42:12,073 I had an enlarged bottle-neck heart, okay? 752 00:42:12,115 --> 00:42:15,660 And so I had a tendency to pass out a lot. 753 00:42:15,702 --> 00:42:17,078 How about childhood illnesses, 754 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,164 did you have any ... I mean accidents, rather, 755 00:42:19,205 --> 00:42:20,623 any sort of injuries or accidents? 756 00:42:20,665 --> 00:42:22,000 I was hit with a ... 757 00:42:22,042 --> 00:42:23,793 When I went to the other vocational school, 758 00:42:23,835 --> 00:42:25,837 when I first went to the vocational school, 759 00:42:25,879 --> 00:42:27,255 I got hit with a park swing 760 00:42:27,297 --> 00:42:29,841 in the side of the head, caused a mastoid. 761 00:42:29,883 --> 00:42:33,970 At what age was that, approximately? 762 00:42:34,763 --> 00:42:36,181 Fourteen, I believe. 763 00:42:36,222 --> 00:42:37,724 Got hit with a swing, were you out, unconscious? 764 00:42:37,766 --> 00:42:39,225 Yeah. I was taken to a medical clinic. 765 00:42:39,267 --> 00:42:40,435 Mm-hmm. 766 00:42:40,477 --> 00:42:41,978 That was at the time ... 767 00:42:42,020 --> 00:42:44,230 That’s when they started saying that I had epilepsy. 768 00:42:44,272 --> 00:42:46,816 Did you have any episodes ... Seizures? 769 00:42:46,858 --> 00:42:48,193 Seizures, things of that nature? 770 00:42:48,234 --> 00:42:50,403 Yes. Seizures were, according to the doctor, 771 00:42:50,445 --> 00:42:53,365 they claimed that when I have an epileptic seizure, 772 00:42:53,406 --> 00:42:57,118 I had 800 times my own strength, or 800 pounds of strength. 773 00:42:58,703 --> 00:43:02,207 Gacy’s mother said that Gacy passed out all of the time 774 00:43:02,248 --> 00:43:04,209 and had to be put in a straitjacket one day 775 00:43:04,250 --> 00:43:07,045 when he became violent. Spectators in the courtroom 776 00:43:07,087 --> 00:43:09,547 showed what appeared to be sympathy for the woman 777 00:43:09,589 --> 00:43:13,009 when told the court that her husband was a mean, abusive man. 778 00:43:13,426 --> 00:43:15,762 I kind of look back because we always called 779 00:43:15,804 --> 00:43:17,764 my dad Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. 780 00:43:18,473 --> 00:43:20,433 When he’d go downstairs and drink, 781 00:43:20,475 --> 00:43:22,686 he always came up as another person. 782 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,065 He would be angry and upset about something. 783 00:43:27,107 --> 00:43:31,277 And no matter what we said or did, he would blow up. 784 00:43:32,445 --> 00:43:35,782 Have you ever been sexually abused by anybody? 785 00:43:36,199 --> 00:43:41,287 At the age of 9, there was a contractor who was ... 786 00:43:41,329 --> 00:43:43,081 Building contractor? ... 787 00:43:43,123 --> 00:43:44,833 building a house next door, and he used to pick me up 788 00:43:44,874 --> 00:43:46,584 and take me for rides 789 00:43:46,626 --> 00:43:48,294 and always wanted to show me wrestling holds, 790 00:43:48,336 --> 00:43:51,131 was always pinning my head in between his legs. 791 00:43:51,172 --> 00:43:52,966 But at the time, I did not look at it as sexual. 792 00:43:53,008 --> 00:43:54,968 He was showing me wrestling holds where my head 793 00:43:55,010 --> 00:43:56,428 was always constantly pinned 794 00:43:56,469 --> 00:43:58,471 between his legs or under his legs. 795 00:43:58,930 --> 00:44:00,473 The guy was in our neighborhood 796 00:44:00,515 --> 00:44:03,143 probably for over a year. 797 00:44:03,893 --> 00:44:06,980 And my dad and him became friends. 798 00:44:08,273 --> 00:44:10,859 And sooner or later the guy asked 799 00:44:10,900 --> 00:44:14,029 if he could take John to go to the movies, 800 00:44:14,070 --> 00:44:16,865 and it surprises me that my dad would have said, 801 00:44:16,906 --> 00:44:18,575 "Yeah, that’s okay." 802 00:44:19,034 --> 00:44:24,164 But I remember my dad being extremely mad 803 00:44:24,831 --> 00:44:26,624 and talking about his gun. 804 00:44:26,666 --> 00:44:31,880 He had a little pistol, and that he was going to shoot this guy. 805 00:44:32,380 --> 00:44:37,510 And then as I got older, I had asked my mom about it. 806 00:44:38,261 --> 00:44:41,306 My mom said, "Well, when John was younger, 807 00:44:41,348 --> 00:44:43,808 this guy did something to him. 808 00:44:43,850 --> 00:44:47,604 And it made Dad want to kill the guy." 809 00:44:48,063 --> 00:44:50,982 I began to wonder, "Was that the start 810 00:44:51,024 --> 00:44:53,151 of something that had happened to him? 811 00:44:54,569 --> 00:44:58,615 Did he then think he had to be this person?" 812 00:44:59,532 --> 00:45:01,659 What the defense was trying to do was to show 813 00:45:01,701 --> 00:45:03,328 that he had been abused 814 00:45:03,370 --> 00:45:06,664 and that that was the cause of his insanity. 815 00:45:07,207 --> 00:45:09,376 I felt very sorry for the mother. 816 00:45:10,210 --> 00:45:12,003 Later she broke down and cried, 817 00:45:12,045 --> 00:45:14,964 saying "I still don’t believe any of it. 818 00:45:15,006 --> 00:45:17,050 I’d just like to erase everything." 819 00:45:19,135 --> 00:45:21,096 When she was finished, I testified. 820 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:26,685 You walk out there, and you get in the witness thing, 821 00:45:26,726 --> 00:45:29,270 and after they swear you in, you sit down, 822 00:45:29,312 --> 00:45:30,980 and some of the questions and stuff 823 00:45:31,022 --> 00:45:33,316 were really about his childhood, 824 00:45:33,358 --> 00:45:36,444 about, how did I see his childhood and him growing up? 825 00:45:36,486 --> 00:45:39,197 Asking about if I had noticed changes. 826 00:45:39,656 --> 00:45:42,242 I still lean toward something happened, 827 00:45:42,283 --> 00:45:45,578 and somehow, he had two personalities. 828 00:45:47,038 --> 00:45:49,958 There’s got to be two sides. But why? 829 00:45:50,458 --> 00:45:54,838 Why all of a sudden such a big difference in character? 830 00:45:55,922 --> 00:46:00,093 Did the knocks in his head, falling down the stairs, 831 00:46:00,635 --> 00:46:03,263 was it more than just a little blood clot? 832 00:46:04,222 --> 00:46:06,224 If you wanted a character witness, 833 00:46:06,266 --> 00:46:08,101 I guess I was a character witness. 834 00:46:09,060 --> 00:46:13,648 But you have all these eyes on you, all these parents, 835 00:46:13,690 --> 00:46:20,905 siblings, looking at you. All we wanted to do was, 836 00:46:20,947 --> 00:46:23,742 we wanted to apologize to the families. 837 00:46:24,784 --> 00:46:28,580 We wanted them to know that their hurt was our hurt too. 838 00:46:32,792 --> 00:46:35,337 The defense has rested its case in the trial 839 00:46:35,378 --> 00:46:37,589 of accused mass murderer John Wayne Gacy, 840 00:46:37,630 --> 00:46:41,009 this coming after another day of psychiatric testimony. 841 00:46:41,051 --> 00:46:43,428 In the end, the trial was basically 842 00:46:43,470 --> 00:46:47,557 was competing psychiatrist evaluations of Gacy. 843 00:46:47,599 --> 00:46:51,061 On the one hand, you had those who said he was absolutely sane 844 00:46:51,102 --> 00:46:52,645 and responsible for his actions. 845 00:46:52,687 --> 00:46:56,274 On the other, they said that there was no way 846 00:46:56,316 --> 00:46:59,319 someone who was sane could do what he did. 847 00:47:03,448 --> 00:47:06,284 If you have one, two or three psychiatrists 848 00:47:06,326 --> 00:47:08,411 that are willing to say that, 849 00:47:08,453 --> 00:47:15,043 "I find that someone had a disease that made him insane 850 00:47:15,627 --> 00:47:17,003 at a certain time, 851 00:47:17,045 --> 00:47:21,633 but he could in fact act normal during the other times," 852 00:47:21,675 --> 00:47:25,762 it’s hard to contradict that expert. 853 00:47:26,638 --> 00:47:29,974 I was very worried that we would not meet our burden 854 00:47:30,016 --> 00:47:31,601 of beyond a reasonable doubt, 855 00:47:31,643 --> 00:47:35,230 and he may be found not guilty or you may get a hung jury. 856 00:47:39,901 --> 00:47:43,196 Let’s not forget serial killers are pretty smart people. 857 00:47:44,114 --> 00:47:47,492 He was the kind of guy that would be totally honest with you 858 00:47:47,534 --> 00:47:50,495 if he knew you already knew or were going to find out. 859 00:47:53,248 --> 00:47:55,083 After he was charged with murder, 860 00:47:55,583 --> 00:47:57,961 I drove him from the Des Plaines Police Station 861 00:47:58,003 --> 00:47:59,671 to the Cook County Jail. 862 00:48:03,049 --> 00:48:04,843 On the way there, "John," I says, 863 00:48:05,218 --> 00:48:07,387 "How many people did you really kill?" 864 00:48:07,929 --> 00:48:10,473 He says, "Well, I told my attorneys 30-some-odd." 865 00:48:10,515 --> 00:48:12,976 He says, "You guys know about, what, 33?" 866 00:48:13,852 --> 00:48:16,396 I says, "Yeah. Are there more?" He says, "Well, you know what?" 867 00:48:16,438 --> 00:48:18,398 He says, "Forty-five sounds like a good number." 868 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,151 I said, "Well, where are they?" 869 00:48:21,192 --> 00:48:24,779 He said, "No. That’s your job. You got to find out." 870 00:48:26,489 --> 00:48:31,036 We had 33, so that would mean obviously there’s 12 more 871 00:48:31,077 --> 00:48:32,746 somewhere.